Montgomery Smashing The Stigma
The statistics tell a clear story. The National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) reports that one in five Americans live with a mental health condition. With the support of our City Council, the City began a mental health initiative to help break the stigma. As a small local government, providing treatment for mental illness was not feasible. Still, the City believes we are responsible for being a conduit and connecting people with groups and solutions that are out there when they need it most.
Montgomery Smashing The Stigma
Don Scalf and Rasheed Kassem - Helping Those Who Help Others
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Cincinnati Police Sergeant Don Skalf has been a Cincinnati police officer for 25 years. Don is assigned to the Officer Wellness Unit. Don shared his story about his suicide attempt during the Montgomery Suicide Prevention panel discussion on August 29, 2024.
Montgomery Police Officer Rasheed Kassem has been in law enforcement for 18 years, nearly two years here in Montgomery. He is also a wellness coordinator with Hamilton County Police Association Peer Support.
Panel Discussion from August 29, 2024
Hi everyone, I'm Amy Frederick and you're listening to the Montgomery Smashing the Stigma podcast. Connie Gaylor, executive assistant, is joining me on this episode. She's part of the city's mental health team.
CONNIE GAYLOR:We are grateful to everyone who attended our four panel discussion on suicide signs, symptoms and treatment in August. We wanted to invite our panelists back and expand our conversations.
AMY FREDERICK:In this episode, we welcome two police officers for a conversation about understanding the mental health and wellbeing needs of our first responders. We want to take a moment to warn our listeners. This episode contains a graphic conversation about suicide that is intended for a mature audience. Some material may be traumatizing to some audiences.
CONNIE GAYLOR:We welcome Cincinnati Police Sergeant Don Skalf. Don has been a Cincinnati police officer for 25 years. Don is assigned to the Officer Wellness Unit.
AMY FREDERICK:Our other guest is Montgomery Police Officer Rasheed Kassem. Rasheed has been in law enforcement for 18 years, nearly two years here in Montgomery. He also serves as a wellness coordinator with Hamilton County Police Association. Peer support.
CONNIE GAYLOR:We want to start with you, Don. During our four panel presentation, you shared a very personal, very raw side of yourself. We would like to play that recording.
DON SCALF:You're probably wondering why there's a chubby guy up here with a dog talking to you. This is Stella. She is the new therapy dog for the Cincinnati Police Department. We've had her for about four months since we've had her. We've probably gotten over seven officers to find some type of treatment or to go somewhere else. So she's doing a great job. She's just lying there right now. Um, and you probably the one question I get asked is, why did you get to do this? So my story starts back in 1999. I was a brand new police officer. I was 25 years old. I was working third shift. I really hadn't figured out that portion of life yet. Um, driving home from work on Thanksgiving, I fell asleep at the wheel and killed a man. Um, I saw it. No treatment. I went through everything. I got to keep my job. Um, and then I did this job that I love for 20 more years. But I'd never dealt with that first incident. Um, our job is very graphic. Um, I see kids in the room, so I'm going to try to be as polite as humanly possible. But we see things that people shouldn't see. Um, we see child deaths, we see motorcycle accidents, we see all this stuff, and we just expect we're tough enough. Suck it up, buttercup. You're fine. Um. And for 20 years, I was fine. Uh, I got angry, I got mad over silly stuff, but I saw nothing wrong with that, you know? Go home, sit there and watch TV. Don't talk to anybody. I had a bad day. Leave me alone. So in 2020, we had that awesome year, and I probably started going downhill at the beginning of it and didn't realize it. Um, we still worked. We were still going to work every day. I will say the traffic was awesome because there was nobody on the roads. I got downtown in like 15 minutes, I was there. Yeah. Um, but we still worked. And at that time, I had, uh. I'm going to keep looking at this because I like to say this. I'm going to go back just slightly. The one thing I'll say about police work is people don't realize this, but citizen's worst days when they have to deal with police officers are every day. That's what we do. So if you had an accident, that's probably a pretty bad day for you for that month. I'm going to do five accidents today. If somebody in your family gets shot or something like that, that's an awful day. In Cincinnati, we go on 3 or 4 shootings a week. So for a police officer, People's worst days are every day. So I like to say that just so you can kind of get a a picture of what we dealt with, um, or what we deal with. So back in 2020, like I said, I was probably going down a little downhill, but we were still working and we were at that time, I was assigned to the ATF task force. We hunted down a very violent people. That's all we would do. We bought guns. If I go too long, please tell me, because I will keep talking. Um, that's what we did. And on this day in August, we had been looking for a guy for about three weeks. He had threatened to kill, to die by suicide, by cop. He had pistol whipped somebody the day before. Whole nine yards. He was a bad dude. Um, we get into a vehicle pursuit with him. I'm in charge of the pursuit. I'm the sergeant officer in charge, and bad guy wrecks and kills an elderly couple. I, one of the first. Non-uniform cars on scene. I pop out and the female victim looks just like the man I had struck 20 years ago. So I have to say, when I started police work, I was here. My first accident put me here. Years of doing this job put me here that day. I usually drop something, but it's really loud. Um, boom. I was on the floor. I did not go home. I did not call my nearest therapist. I went to work.
We stayed at work until about 6:00 in the morning.
We had started at 6:00 the morning before, so about 24 hours we did two search warrants, recovered about 13 guns, got home on Saturday, and all I could picture was exactly what you think I could picture. Um, I, I was bad, I was really bad. But I kept saying I'm fine, I'm fine. You can't fix this. Um. It got to the point within the very near future days, weeks where I'm already a foot shaker as it is. I was shaking my entire body. Um, I couldn't focus. If you walked in and said hi, I'd say, f you. You don't need to tell me hi. Get away from me. And because of that, um, people I worked with, my closest friends saw this, but I was fine, I was fine. Leave me alone. I'm fine. Um, and then we got to the part that we're here to discuss. And I have a really bad term that I'm £6 of pressure away from not being here. Because that's about how much it takes to pull the trigger on our firearms. Um, one night, I was sitting in my room. It was. I was done. That was my term for saying I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. Um, my family was either supposed to be out in the backyard or downstairs. I've got three boys, one who's now 22, one who's 19 and one who's 15. At that time, my oldest was 18. I did not know he was in his room. I'm sitting. I agree. It's hard for me to talk. What the heck is wrong with you? Do you have something to say? I don't know. Um. If you all can't tell, I tell the story and have to have humor. Because I had. That's how I deal with things. Um, but anyway. So I was sitting there, did not think anybody was upstairs, and I did place my gun in my mouth, and I was getting ready to pull the trigger, and I heard something. So I like a kid who had just gotten his hand in the cookie jar. I put the gun down behind my back, and my oldest had not gone outside yet? He said, are you all right? Yes. I'm fine. He didn't say anything, but then I was like, whew, that was close. So the probably next day or a couple days later, I'm acting up at work and one of my good friends says, it's time we take a ride. And I go, no, I ain't taking a ride with you. I just took a ride. I was getting the damn car. Chris, I was that close. I call it my abduction because I usually speak to cops. And he had his gun on him. I did not at that point. So it was. He put me in the car and took me for a drive. Um, he has a line that I like to say, and he said, uh, imagine all the stress and the crap you have seen gets dumped into a coffee cup. At some point you have to empty the cup, and Don, it's time for you to empty your effing cup. So he made me call for help that day. When I initially called for help, I was fine. I'll go talk to somebody, but whatever. Dude, this is just being a cop. Um, we get on scene about three weeks later, and I had a captain. We were in the middle of doing a buy bus for guns again. And people who sell guns like to run away when you try to stop them. I don't understand why. Um, we had another pursuit this time. We had everything set up, and they didn't hurt anybody. But they did wreck. And I came across across the corner onto Queen City Avenue and see nothing but cars. And I was done. I couldn't walk, I was shaking, I had people holding on to me like, dude, what is wrong with you? I just that was on a Friday. On Monday, I got my power suspended and I got, for the most part, put on a month leave. Um, and I'd go see my therapist, and it was hard. It was a lot of work. Um, now I tell all that nasty, goofy stuff to tell the good parts.
AMY FREDERICK:Don, that's a powerful story that you've shared with us on that evening on the 20. And I'm here to talk to you. Let's bring in Rasheed to our conversation.
DON SCALF:That as dark as I got, I'm a police officer with the city of Montgomery. Um, also a peer support member. It's not a county police association. We met Dawn through from six years old or from the school sector trainings. Um, I ain't nobody and I ain't no, you know, other part. And so the first time I saw my trainings and also attend a lot of the same stuff because I'm not sure there ain't no other part. She said, well, let me.
AMY FREDERICK:So how did the two of you meet? What? What drew the two of you together?
DON SCALF:The other part. So we were at. It's really cold. So it's just because it's female doesn't make it weak. One of my old partners who was. That's getting smacked in the face right there. He's like, oh, you got me. So, um, and that's the fact. And that's why I'm talking about doing these type of things and doing. It's not weak to get. I said it was, to be honest with you, it took a hell of a lot more strength to hold him up on the phone with me, to say and to walk into those rooms and talk about all the darkness in my life than it did for me to say, I'm fighting. Somebody hand me a damn beer. When we do our trainings together, it's a very. We have a give and take that we do well. And usually it's with law enforcement or first responder personnel so we don't have to worry about, you know, earmuffs for anybody. Um, we're just pretty honest and tell our story that way.
AMY FREDERICK:So tell me about the presentations that you do. What are those like?
DON SCALF:So it's a CIT training. It's what we've been doing. The critical intervention team. Yeah, the crisis intervention team. Sorry. And we're really there to really plug the peer support programs, especially for the Hkpa, and just let people know what a peer support is supposed to be, which is exactly what it says. Um, in law enforcement, we don't like to talk to doctors. Um, we May 1st grab something that we know has been through something. And I think that's where I get a lot of people who talk to me because my story, like I said earlier, is very it was very public. Um, everybody knew what I went through. So now they come to me and that's what. So that's why we speak together, is we're trying to put those programs out there and teach the people in the CIT trainings exactly what it's about. And you're recruiting a little bit for the Hkpa team as well.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah, yeah. With the the first responder group, we're we're a guarded bunch because everyone expects us to have our stuff together and be the ones to solve everybody's problems, and a lot of us still think that we can't have problems ourselves, because if we can't take care of ourselves, we can't take care of everyone else. So we just put it out there saying that if you feel like you have to be perfect and you feel like you don't have problems, while you're probably sadly mistaken because all of us in some way probably are dealing with something, and we just want to make it aware, other than the trainings, make it acceptable for people to come forward and get help that they need.
DON SCALF:Another thing that you kind of touched on there is we're cops, we're in the helping business. That's what we think we do. We're here to fix things. We're not here to have somebody else fix them. So it makes it very difficult for us to go get help when we need it, because that's our job. You know, you can't help me. You can't fix this. You can't fix stupid. I'm stupid. I mean, that's the way we kind of look at it. And so when we go to these trainings, we have to tell cops, you might need help. I speak to our recruits as well. Um, I speak whenever somebody will listen to me, which is, you know, I'll talk a lot. Um, but that's. Yeah. So that's where we're. That's why we do what we do with those trainings.
AMY FREDERICK:So in that recorded piece, you talked about another officer who came to you that really opened you up with a cup of coffee scenario. Tell us that again. And do you use that same thought when you're talking to your peers?
DON SCALF:It depends. So obviously I spoke to her in service for the last few years. So most people have heard that story with that. But I was still there's all kinds of ways to put it. You know, it's your coffee cup is full. And what it is, is, um, when I was at a really bad time and Joe did not know this, and it was actually right after I had I tried to got stopped from committing suicide. Um, but. And he didn't know all that, but he was just he knew I was bad off and he said, Don, you know, imagine everything you deal with is that coffee cup. And when you when you're spilling it over, I add to that. Imagine you have a computer right there, and if your cup is spilling over, you're screwing everything else around it on your computer, on the floor. And if it starts spilling, it's going to start entering other parts of your life and other people's lives. And then when you put that on, well, I'm affecting other people, makes it a little different. One of the reasons that Joe got to me is he says, I don't trust you right now. And to be a police officer. And somebody said they don't trust you even made my throat just there. I kind of got a frog in my throat saying that, and that's really hard.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah, I would compare that to the coffee example too. Everyone's probably flown or have heard of the example where that air mask falls from the ceiling. And if you're not putting your own mask on first and taking care of yourself, then you can't take care of the people around you. So I would I would put that on a similar example of peer support, where if you're not taking care of yourself and you know that you need help, well, you can't expect yourself, or anybody can expect you to take care of the people around you. So you got to put that mask on. And I would I would kind of put the example of an air mask and airplane as same as you taking care of yourself mentally.
AMY FREDERICK:If somebody comes to you, a peer that comes to you, another officer, what's the first thing that you say to them?
DON SCALF:Somebody might say, hey, Sarge, you got a second? What's up? And it could be I usually just say, what's up? What do you need? And then I let them talk. Because if I say, what's wrong with you? What do you need? It's more. What's up? Because we're having a conversation. I'm not a therapist. I'm a guy who has learned from his mistakes. Not all of my mistakes I've learned from, but for most of them. But, um. So I've been there. I'm more of a I'm a colleague to them. Um, when they start telling me what's going on in their life, that might be where I get other avenues involved. Um, since we've had Stella, we've had seven people seek some type of professional treatment outside of us, and that is what this is about. I have we are trying to get rid of that stigma that if I'm going to talk to somebody, that I'm weak and all of that because you're not. If you talk to somebody that takes a lot of strength to tell somebody the your flaws or the things that are going on in your head. So, um, so the first thing I would say to somebody is just, what's up? What do you need? I had one who had just had a really bad run the night before. All they needed was to talk to me for 30 minutes. They got done, said thank you. This was exactly what I needed. Nothing else, nothing more. Just needed to get it off. Off their chest.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Don and Rasheed. Um, how do you feel after you have spoken with somebody and you've given them support? Does it re-energize you? Um. Is it hard to hear? Does it ever trigger anything with you? How? How do you feel afterwards?
RASHEED KASSEM:It's. I would say it's kind of weird saying this, but it brings me joy knowing that I'm helping somebody, uh, in a in a field where it's so hard to kind of be vulnerable. And it definitely, um, re-energizes the reason or the why that I do this. And it just, it really gives you it drives the passion, really. And you might not go, you know, it might be a while before you help somebody else. Um, and you kind of you do. It does take a toll on you, too, because you're basically taking other people's issues and stress and trauma and kind of trying to help them. So you're internalizing a lot of that stuff. So I try and stay focused on those times where I know I'm helping somebody because there's some times where it might not be as I guess, as loud to where you're helping somebody, but just putting that, like planting that seed in somebody's mind to where it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to not be perfect because nobody is. It's okay to know that all these resources are there for you, whether you use them or not. And it definitely does re-energize every time I try and help somebody. And then and then I hear stories that other officers that I work with are helping too. Um, without sharing details or who or what. But that kind of it just shows that we're, we're doing a good thing with this move and trying to help other people.
DON SCALF:It can be therapeutic for me because I'm talking to one to a guy officer one day, and his story was kind of similar. And I'm like, hey, this is how this is what I did wrong. And he was like, wow, okay. And so to me, I coach football. I'd like to help people. Now I can't help. I'm in the right frame of mind. Um, probably one of the most powerful things I've ever heard is I've had more than one officer tell me I saved their life. That's huge. And when you hear that, not just once, but several times, it's like doing something right.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah. And then when you follow up, the biggest thing that I think we try and do too, is follow up with those officers and staff. Just so it's not like a one time one and done. Hey, do you need help? No. Okay. See you later. Where I try and set a reminder. So I'm following up with those people, uh, just so they know that we're there. So that down the road, if they don't hear from me, they at least remember, and they're like, oh, that guy followed up. And not just in the peer support world, but almost in any world sales business, whatever it is, when you get that follow up call or that email or text, it kind of shows that that person actually gives a shit. And it's it's probably the most powerful thing is that follow up.
DON SCALF:We actually for our peer support team who are coordinators, Tiffany Galvez and she's just done an amazing job building our program. She does great work. She does, but she puts it in there. If you're assigned somebody from, say, a critical incident, she puts in there, okay, I need you to make contact this week and then about six weeks, make sure you make contact again. You know, the year mark is anniversaries in mental health, I'm sure, as you're aware, are big deals. Like I always know when all of my bad things happen. So, um, those are big deals. So if you're reaching out not the day of but like the month that somebody had a critical incident saying, hey, hey, I was getting about a year. Are you okay? Um, that's that's the keys. We can't just drop the ball and say, oh, I helped you. See you later. Bye bye now. It's a long process. You said. Is it? It can be very, very heavy. Um, when you hear some of the things that cops do, it's very difficult. And we do have to watch ourselves because, um, I will try to internalize that when I can't. I just can't allow it to happen. And there are days where I'm like, ah, it'd be so much easier to just say, somebody hand me a beer. Um, and I still have my beer every now and then, but you got to be careful. You just got to be careful.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah. And another thing is, if you're if you're doing the peer support thing. Right, if you've done this for a little bit, you realize that we need to check on each other like the peers need to be checked on by peers. So we try and be mindful of that. So if I know whether it's Don or Chris or Ali or Tiffany, if if I feel that maybe the communication is a little bit off, I try and catch up with them or just check on them like, hey, everything going good? Because it's easy to get burnt out with this stuff. I mean, there's there was a few weeks ago where I'm just like, you know what this is? There's a lot, but you can't tell when things are going to happen. You know, in this business, you can't plan a lot of this stuff with the peer support. So, you know, it was kind of just got to learn how to cope versus you can't really plan your day around. Oh critical incident happened today. You know I got a I got a clear lunch. It doesn't happen that way where it doesn't matter what your schedule is.
DON SCALF:And that's why we have to lean on each other. I have no problem coming to the city of Montgomery to help sheet out. And he has no problem to come to Cincinnati to help me out. Um, we use our fire Joe with the fire department is a big deal for us. Uh, the county. I have assisted the county on more than one occasion on something like this. And, I mean, that's we have to be a close knit group, and it really helps that we are friends. But even if we weren't, we still would have to help each other out. Because you can't do this work and not this is a village. Raising the family, the whole thing. It really is. Yeah.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah. Ali and her group at the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office. They they do amazing work. And that's the first team. The first peer support team I was on was with her group. And that's how with the training and, um, breaking ground with that team, I really got me into it. And then if it wasn't for her in that group, I wouldn't have got involved with any of the peer support teams.
AMY FREDERICK:What's the most common thing you hear from your peers?
DON SCALF:You know, um, it's it's really all over the place. Uh, from a critical incident. We're usually pretty decent handling those. Um, if you did a survey of 100 police officers, probably 75% would say admin stuff from their department. Um, especially the department that's a little bigger. Usually, uh, cops kind of feel like. So cops. And I like to say this, we see people on their worst day. That's our every day. If you're in an accident, that's a bad day for you. If somebody gets beat, that's a bad day for you. If you somebody steals your wallet, that's a bad day for you. We deal with that every day. So we become cynical. So then we don't trust anything. And I think the common thing that I see is we just don't trust. And if we're not trusting, it's hard to help anything.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah, there's good and bad when it comes to what we hear from peers. You know, when I was first getting into this, uh, I remember an officer called me the psych police, and I was like, what? So I didn't know what he meant by that. But just moving forward, it's like, I guess it was a good thing because we're we're in the headspace. We're dealing with mental health all the time. But, um, it kind of went back to that stigma or that negative connotation where officers are worried about coming forward because they're worried about their gun getting taken. Probably the biggest thing is, well, I can't say that I have a problem or I can't say that I feel like harming myself or I can't say certain things because my administration back to your point, is going to take my gun. So and then can't do our job or be out of a job so that that has changed slowly, but it is changing and I think changing for the better. It's just it's a slow process, but it's definitely something that's like as we're getting out there talking and just being in front of people, I think it's definitely helping.
DON SCALF:One of the things I like to tell people, or that I remind people, is I did this the wrong way. I had to break. You don't have to have the break. I lost my gun for over a year. If you. I knew there was something wrong with me before I actually went completely down. And if I would have had somebody that really understood that and would speak to me and tell me, I mean, back then, I just wouldn't. I didn't listen, so I didn't do it. Um, we're doing it. So four years ago, and if you ever heard Officer Chris Perry with Emperor Amberley Village, Emerald Village speak, he talks about a survey that we did for the city, um, Cincinnati Police Department. And it's just kind of a mental it's a mental health check. Um, he took that, took it honestly and was determined he was at high risk. He got in to help the next day, and he says, I saved his life. Now, I took that test. The same survey, the exact same time he did. I lied my butt off. Got satisfactory. Six months later, I lose. I have my break and I lose my gun for a year. So I did it the wrong way. And that's what I like. I've made mistakes so I can try to help cops not make those same mistakes.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah. That's big. Just. And that's another reason going back to getting that that energy from what we do and being out there in front of people. And even while we're presenting, it's just a, you know, a mandatory training because their departments sending them through the CIT training. Uh, it's a, it's a 40 hour training that all officers are going to be taking. And they put the officer wellness component in there because from the mental health space They know that this is huge and cops want to talk to other cops. But back to what peers are saying is, I would probably say I've never heard anything negative about me reaching out to somebody to check on them, which just shows how important this is. And it could be a run that they go on a couple times a month, or that big run that maybe they only go on once in their career. But to make sure to reach out to every single person that was involved in that and just say, hey, this might not be a big deal to you. It could be it might not be a big deal today, but it could be a big deal in a month or two. We're here. Call me. Here's my number. It's okay not to be okay, but we got to get you right. And that's probably the biggest thing that that keeps us going.
DON SCALF:And I think it's also putting your money where your mouth is. Um, I tell these guys to reach out to me. So I go to the roll calls and reach out to them. Um, if there's a critical incident, I try to go to it when possible. If there's something that's happening, um, I try to put my face out there because if I tell you to reach out to me, you need to know I'm available for you, to reach for you to reach out to. So yeah, I agree.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Do you feel like that law enforcement as a whole is starting to change? I mean, I know it's a focus here at City of Montgomery and it is at Cincinnati, but do you feel like nationwide as a whole, that the administrative side of police work is embracing peer support, that they're seeing the importance of it and welcoming it? Um, so.
DON SCALF:Yes, it is. I believe it's got a it's got a much bigger foothold than it did when Rashid and I started. Um, part of that is 2020. And the younger generation really embraces mental health a heck of a lot more than my generation did. Um, the thing is, though, yes, we are embracing it, but we still need more. It's it's really slow right now and not slow, but we're at the infant stages, infancy, whatever that word is. Sorry, I don't speak well. We are at the very beginning of this, and we do have a really long road to go. But I would say that I do think that for the most part, across the country, the trend is to support wellness more than they have in the past.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah, a prime example of that is all the all the input of where peer support officer wellness is. We just started doing the the trainings with CIT. I think it was last year. Uh, Cincinnati does it. Um, through Mental Health of America. And that group makes sure that we are at the advanced training and the the basic 40 hour training. Um, I also went through a field training officer course earlier this year, and that is a course basically to help train new officers that get hired by our department. And so they even had an officer wellness peer support segment in that training. And then they also have with supervisor leadership trainings they have it. And they're also and they do it in the basic academies. So they're incorporating it in in the updated the what the continued professional training stuff, the mandated stuff we have to do every year. They do that every year now, and they incorporate the peer support officer wellness in that too. So in almost any, any part of anything mandatory that they can get officers or they can get it in front of officers, they're doing it. So it shows that it's they're getting it there. And I think a lot of leaders and administration are buying into it. I say the the old heads or the old trustees or the ones you got to worry about me. Well, not you.
DON SCALF:But but it was me.
RASHEED KASSEM:But like the yeah, the crusty officers, the older ones that have that old mentality where it's like, you know, rub some dirt on it or suck it up and move on, or, you know, you show your emotions and be vulnerable. You know, it's you can't do that where it's definitely changing. Um, I know with Cincinnati police, they had a slow run, and the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office had a slow run, and they were filling it with Hkpa. Our peer support team were having a slow run to to kind of get the word out. And then for the word out to know that officers can reach out and not worry about retaliation or anything from their admin to where we're just here to help. And for your admin to know that we're here to help you, that shows that your admin has bought in to. So that's that's big. Um.
DON SCALF:I had something I was going to add and I don't remember what it was now, so never mind.
RASHEED KASSEM:Probably real good.
DON SCALF:It was good, actually. And then I lost it. It happens.
AMY FREDERICK:I'm old. I understand. So at one point in your life, you were ready to take your own life? Yes, ma'am. And then fast forward to today, where people are thanking you for saving your their's. Weird, huh? It's funny how life works at times, but how does that feel?
DON SCALF:So it's. It's weird. It's weird because I am not a touchy feely guy. I'm a football guy, I coach football. It's weird for me to be in this position. That being said, it's also it takes a lot of strength to do this and you don't realize it being the person who's okay to say, I'm not okay and you tell me you're not okay, and I'm not sitting there because there's no judging with what we do. And that's the that's the big thing. There's two things. There's no judging and there's the confidentiality. We're protected by state law as peer supporters. Um, unless you're going to hurt yourself or others. Everything you tell you tell me is protected. And that is huge with cops because we don't like we said earlier, we don't trust anyone. So if I'm bound by law. So if your issues are not going to be part of a rumor mill, which is bad. Police world. Yeah, and we have that trust together. That's the big thing.
RASHEED KASSEM:Adding on to that, um, the the trust and the confidentiality. I mean, when I'm doing trainings or when I'm talking to somebody, I almost oversell it to the point where it's like, okay, he's got to be lying because he said it so much, but it's I can't sell it enough to where cops, even firefighters, it just they don't trust anybody. And then you deal with their feelings and their emotions and it's almost like you're you're getting their life in your hands. And it takes a while. And that's what the slow process is, is they don't want to open up until they hear the stories, or they see that you helped somebody that they know and they trust, and then they're going to trust you. But the biggest thing is we're not here to share people's stories. We're just here to help. So I would say that that's probably the biggest thing is the trust factor. We're not.
DON SCALF:Here to.
RASHEED KASSEM:Judge.
DON SCALF:Yeah, we're not here to judge. I know cops have told me stuff that you know. No, you made a bad decision. But I'm not judging that decision. I'm here to make sure you're okay. I'm not here to tell you what you did was right, wrong, or indifferent. I'm here to listen. Give you a shoulder to lean on if need be, and we go forward from here.
RASHEED KASSEM:I'd probably say to that also, the biggest thing to make peer support and assisting those around us in the mental health space successful is vetting and picking the right people. And when somebody's name comes up on the table and you're like, hey, would this be a good fit for the team? You ask around. It's like, well, no so-and-so, you know, they're doing this, or they like to talk or they like to just share people's stories. They're not going to be in it for the right reasons. That's probably the biggest thing that makes or breaks. A peer support team also is picking the right people for the team to help.
DON SCALF:Yeah. If we're talking about some of the challenges with the peer support team. That's probably number one. Number two is having clinicians who are culturally competent because we're we're police. We're different than others. So, um, if I go in to somebody who knows nothing about the police world and I start dropping F-bombs and cussing and cursing, and that person gets offended by my language, that's not a culturally competent person. And we have had that. We've had we've sent people to clinicians who were not competent for cops, great for other people, maybe great for kids, but they weren't great for cops. So that that that's vetting your peer supporters and vetting your clinicians are two of the main things you have to do for a peer support program.
AMY FREDERICK:So tell us, how do you choose your peer support people?
DON SCALF:Um, so for the city, we we put out every probably once a year, maybe a little less, maybe a little more. We'll put out a training. It's a 40 hour work week. And we'll just kind of we'll let anybody can take it doesn't mean we're we're necessarily going to pick you on the peer support team, but we let everybody take the test or take the class. Part of that reason is, you know, sometimes there's somebody for everybody. So if you only have 100 people in your peer support team, which I think is what we have, somebody's going to fall through the cracks. Who you know, I, I don't get along with everybody. I'm not a good peer supporter for everybody on the planet. She is not a good peer supporter for everybody on the planet. The more peer supporters you have, they can have quirks. The one thing they have to be is honest and trustworthy. And that's and we go by that. And it's pretty much we know these people, at least for the police department. We know them. So we know who fits that bill.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah. Same thing with I know with the sheriff's office and the CPA, um, putting out kind of a, I guess something a email blast or something trying to recruit people, um, saying, you know, put in for it. These are the qualifications we're looking for and see who puts in and what are the reasons why they're putting in for it. And then if they're willing to offer some of their life experiences and what they can offer other peers. So like somebody that's been in the military, um, people that have been in the military talked to other people that have been in the military easier than others because they've gone through different things trainings, uh, deployments, different stress levels. So that's something that you want to keep a part of. Um, keep a part of the team. Um, also females and males, we talk to each other differently. Sometimes males might want to talk to females because like a motherly bond, uh, some females, depending on what they're dealing with, don't want to talk to males because of sensitivity issues. Um, also religious faiths having chaplains of of different denominations involved. So if somebody is of a certain faith, maybe they're dealing with the faith based thing or something that, you know, myself or Don can't, um, can't talk about. So it's just it's it's pretty tricky. But we have to try diversity.
DON SCALF:And the reason for that is what he's saying. I mean, and when I say it's everything, we need a little bit of everybody because you never know who is going to be that person, that somebody can talk to, somebody who I might not ever talk to, might be the guy that she talks to. You just don't know. And so that's why we train them up, make sure they have the qualifications. You know, not normally in trouble, that type of thing. Make sure that they have the their honest and their, um, uh, confidentiality. They don't spread. Yeah. If you have those things, we'll take you because at some point you never know.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Is there is there a term That you serve. I don't want that to sound like, you know, begin this year and end that year. But is there a point where you think, okay, somebody's been on peer support a little bit too long, they need a break themselves? Do people cycle off, or do you just allow it to be a personal decision?
RASHEED KASSEM:So I think Cincinnati police regionally, well, there's the Tri-State peer support team also. But I think Cincinnati police, more that I've been involved in, has probably been the longest running between fire US Sheriff's office and from experience just working with them to and us is it. It depends. So some people can handle it well. But that's why we do those check ins that we talked about earlier. So if you feel like you can't help somebody it's kind of on you. But I think with trainings and meetings and that sort of thing, you can really gauge the people you're around a lot more to see, Like something's going on with you. Let me reach out to them and say, hey, if you got to step back, or maybe as the coordinator, you notice things. Maybe you don't utilize that person for everything that you used to. Maybe you do one out of every five calls, or one out of every three check ups or that sort of thing, so that the coordinator should be keeping tabs on that too. So that's something that we got to do.
DON SCALF:So what Tiffany does as well is she asks the our members, our peer supporters to get a mental health physical, you know, go talk to somebody once every couple of years. And that way, you know, if you're doing if you're speaking differently, see the same therapist or whatever, that way you have a check in. Um, but we don't have anything that's set in stone. Um, Tiffany's been working on this program since around 2015. I've been involved since 2020. Um, so I don't think I'm getting kicked out yet. But yeah. And once again, I use Tiffany's name a lot because she's put in the research to this. Everything she does has been researched. She's she's studied it. She's looked at best practices and that type of thing.
AMY FREDERICK:What is it that you want people to know about peer support?
RASHEED KASSEM:I guess the the biggest thing and with the trainings that we speak at is that in general from like the general public that first responders deal with stuff. And yeah, it could be on a run where you're calling 911 that you have somebody that might need some help. And so you kind of you got to kind of give them I don't know how I'm trying to word that, but you got to give them a little leeway because they're dealing with your issues. But we're dealing with our issues too. Not saying that they get a pass for anything, but with peer support this will definitely help that. So this is driving a movement to help first responders, civil service people, to better prepare themselves, to keep doing the job that they're doing and to take care of themselves. So that's probably the the most important thing I could say is just we're trying to help all the first responders in the area be better equipped for handling the stress of the job and the stress of everyday life, and move forward so they can keep serving the people the way.
DON SCALF:Yes, I 100% to add on to that, um, this is like any profession we you have bad days. The difference is, if I'm having a bad day, I still may have to get into a critical incident. And you don't want that guy who's worried about, you know, all of these mental things that's going on with him that then have to make a decision, a life or death decision. And that's from the public standpoint, supporting these officer wellness programs are making us better cops. Mhm. And that's why earlier you asked about across the country they have done the studies a so stupid a happy cops a good cop. But I mean if you are in a good place mentally you are going to do a better job, you're going to be able to handle somebody else's, uh, incident without letting it affect you. And that's. Yeah. So that's the big thing to me, too. In speaking to the public officer, wellness is making us better cops for them.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah, I agree to that. When I started in the peer support space, I was an investigation. So I wasn't dealing with the public as as readily or as normal as I am now. But now that I'm a patrol officer, um, all the trainings, you know, the the mental health trainings and, um, the peer support trainings, all that is basically just how to notice those there's issues, what to say and what not to say when you're dealing with people, when they're dealing with those issues and then the resources. So the same resources that we give to firefighters and police officers and staff is the same things we can offer to the regular people, the general public. So kind of being more aware of how to deal with people is we can use it for peers, we can use it for the general public. So it's it's huge. So it's a good point.
AMY FREDERICK:So I'm going to ask you both a question. You're going to go first Rasheed. What is it that you love about being a police officer?
RASHEED KASSEM:It's the probably the cheesiest answer, but just helping people from a young age. I think with Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, um, getting that instilled in me, in volunteering and going above and beyond and being there for for people, it kind of transcended into my career. And knowing that I either wanted to be a firefighter or a police officer, thank God I'm not a police officer or a firefighter because no fire's hot.
DON SCALF:I keep that stuff away from me. That stuff will burn.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah, but so just worked out with with the service of a police officer, you get. I get that same feeling from when I was a Cub Scout boy scout of just being there to help no matter what and putting people in front of you. And it just feels good when you're when you're doing that. And I think that also goes with peer support, just helping people around me, especially the people I work with because they're there to help the people around them, too. So, um, the biggest thing is just helping people.
AMY FREDERICK:So, Don, I'm going to pose yours differently. Okay. You went. Yeah. You got to stay on our own paper. Um, you went through a lot, by your own admission. So why not just quit? Why not just find a different job? What was it about police work, law enforcement that kept you with it?
DON SCALF:So, um, this is the job I've wanted to do since I was a kid. The helping people was part of it. But the thing that I've noticed now is I've always been a team guy. I'm always playing sports or something like that, and having this ability to have one cog help that team go is probably why I wanted to stay, especially once I realized I could help. When I realized if I came back and started doing the peer support and started trying to prevent suicide, that was going to be my role. Um, so I love being a police officer for the same corny reason to help people, but I've almost turned it into now. I'm not just helping everyone, I'm helping those people that are part of my team, and that's the way I like to look at it, is it's my team and you're not going to we're going to try to get our team to get through this safely.
RASHEED KASSEM:Now, I can speak to that too. It's just Don and I being in the same network, um, in the same groups, talking to the same people, hearing the people that he touches and helping them. And it's it's powerful. I mean, you're doing some good work. So it it's true exactly to the reason why you say you're doing this and it switches and it changes and but but all in all, helping people and seeing the amount of people that, that you're helping is it's keeping me going with this too.
DON SCALF:You can make me all cry.
RASHEED KASSEM:Knock it off, knock it off.
DON SCALF:Thank you.
AMY FREDERICK:So is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven't asked, or we've neglected to ask you that you want to tell people?
DON SCALF:I think from a just from talking to the public. Um, he hit on it before we're cops, but we're humans and realized that we do see everybody's worst day. So don't give us a pass. Don't do anything like that. But just realize we're all works and work in progress, just like you are.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Yeah, absolutely.
RASHEED KASSEM:Yeah. It's whether a first responders, general public, whatever you do for work, it's kind of being a better person, being a good person in general. Um, understanding that we're all dealing with something and just kind of I almost think of it this way. If you're not helping, you're hurting. So I try and help whenever I can. And if I'm dealing with something myself, I hope. I hope I can realize that. And the people around me definitely, probably will also. Um, but just just being there for the people around you and just staying on your A-game and trying to and realizing when you're not that there's people out here, whether a first responders or not, there's people out here to help.
AMY FREDERICK:I think that's well said. We want to thank you both for being here today. Thank you so much.
RASHEED KASSEM:For having me.
AMY FREDERICK:Connie. And I want to thank Don and Rasheed for joining us on the Montgomery Smashing the Stigma podcast. And thank you for listening.