Montgomery Smashing The Stigma
The statistics tell a clear story. The National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) reports that one in five Americans live with a mental health condition. With the support of our City Council, the City began a mental health initiative to help break the stigma. As a small local government, providing treatment for mental illness was not feasible. Still, the City believes we are responsible for being a conduit and connecting people with groups and solutions that are out there when they need it most.
Montgomery Smashing The Stigma
Healing Together: Family Grief with Ann Marie Kahwaty-Bogan
In this episode, we’re joined by Ann Marie Kahwaty-Bogan, MSW, LISW, CCTP, from Companions on a Journey, to explore the profound impact of family grief and how to navigate it together. With her expertise in trauma and years of experience supporting grieving families, Ann Marie offers compassionate insights into the grieving process, the unique challenges families face, and practical strategies for healing.
Whether you’re in the midst of grief or looking to support a loved one, Ann Marie’s wisdom provides hope and understanding for those seeking a path to healing.
Hi everyone. You're listening to the Smashing the Stigma podcast. I'm Amy Frederick and Connie Gaylor is joining me.
CONNIE GAYLOR:In this episode, we welcome Ann Marie Kahwaty-Bogan from companions on a journey. Anne Marie has her master's of social work. She's a licensed independent social worker and a certified clinical trauma professional.
AMY FREDERICK:Companions on a Journey is a faith-based social service organization that provides bereavement support and educational services for children, teens, adults, and families in the Greater Cincinnati region, including Westchester and Liberty Township, Ohio, and the surrounding tri-state area. Anne Marie, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you tell us about yourself and how you came to join Companions on a Journey?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:Um, I'm a licensed, independent social worker, and I work in the field of mental health and grief counseling. Um, and so with the certification in trauma, um, I have been working with companions on the journey for 14 years. Started out as a volunteer working with Sheila in the schools, and as the programs developed, we realized that we needed, um, like a clinical supervisor and a program director. And so I was asked to be their clinical supervisor.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Well, we have been so appreciative of companions on a journey, um, getting to know Sheila from doing the first community presentation we were talking about in January of this year and then just, um, feeding that that relationship to, you know, wanting to do more than, than just that and do other things together. So she and I talked about the different presentations and just the different facets of grief. And so that kind of led us to doing these podcast series. So we'd already done The Childhood Grief. And then just recently, you know, we did the holiday grief, which was very powerful. And so that leads us to what we're wanting to kind of focus on today. And that is family grief. So, um, you know, when we think we kind of know what grief looks like, you know, really we don't. And we know that everybody handles everything differently. And so we're not always able to recognize when somebody is in grief. And we know it's different for everybody. So we kind of want to talk about that. Um, so what are some of the characteristics of grief?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So grief looks different for everyone, right? No one has the same grief journey because our relationships are different with each person. Even siblings can have the same, different relationship with a parent. And so that looks different. And then the conditions under which someone has passed. But grief is also about, um, separation or divorce or someone being incarcerated or deported, loss of a house. So grief can take on many different aspects. Um, some of the emotions that go with grief is just feeling overwhelmed. We have, we call the aid of grief where like, you're very disorganized and you can't think straight. Um, it always includes sadness and mourning. Um, but everyone's grief is different. You may feel empty and lost, helpless, um, like, lacking motivation. Or you may feel numb. You might feel like you just. You can't concentrate. So it takes on different roles and and emotions for each person.
AMY FREDERICK:Yeah, that makes sense. Um, you brought us a slinky here today, which I know that you can't see. Is that springy, springy toy that we're all used to. And I know that's something that companions on a journey uses to kind of describe grief. So why don't you kind of tell us what that is, what that means.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So if you've ever had a slinky, you know that it gets very tangled and grief can feel very tangled inside of us. And so what we do is we talk about how there are so many ups and downs in our grief journey that some days that you feel like you're bottoming out, and some days you kind of feel like things are going okay. It's all about balance, um, and how to help you feel better. And we talk about the different layers of grief and how each one of those spirals can feel like, um, like a success, like you're starting to get through this versus, you know, you're falling back. And grief is not linear. And so when we talk about grief, it it doesn't, you know, you don't go from one stage to another stage and, and really just go in order. Right. So you might be feeling like you, you're doing really well. And then you have a grief trigger or a grief moment and you feel like you're you're going all the way back to that first loss oriented grief. But then what happens is you move back into the restorative grief. And so different events and different Triggers will take us back to that loss oriented grief, but then we come back through to our restorative grief, where we're starting to get back on track. The timeline. There is no timeline. For some people, it's, you know, a shorter period of time. For some people, based on the circumstances of the death, based on the relationship. It may take a longer time. So it's all about just pacing yourself and trying to find that balance.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Do you find with the support that you give, when somebody does go through those different phases, like, you know, you say they go to restorative, but then something can pull them right back. Do they start to build a resilience enough to be able to get back to that restorative quicker and stay there longer, or is it does it is it really any. You know, we formulated that I guess, you know.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:We always hope that people move towards resilience. And there are things that you can do to help yourself become more resilient. Lucy Han talks about resilience and grief. And when there's three things that she says that needs to happen, the first is that we have to realize that bad things happen to everybody so that we're not alone. The second thing is, is we need to find things that help us and to help us move through our grief, and we have to kind of stay away from those things that are hard for us. So some days looking at pictures might feel wonderful, and then other days those pictures might feel very hard on our souls. So it's important to to kind of close that book and put it away until you can deal with it.
CONNIE GAYLOR:And you're talking about the balancing, um, how do you balance supporting a family through grief versus just an individual? You know, when it's one on one, you, I, I, I'm just, you know, assuming that you get to know that person. So you kind of know how to support them through that because you learn how they handle things. But then if you have a whole family from adults all the way down to to small children, I imagine that that dynamic changes a lot. So how do you manage that when everybody's in a room?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So the first thing I have to say is it is always an honor that someone is willing to come and share their stories with us, to share their memories and, um, and to share what endeared that person to them. And that's always a very personal experience. Um, when I work with individuals, that is this the path that we take, we begin to talk about the memories and the good things and how it's so hard and why it's so hard. Um, we talk about the secondary losses that they may experience as well in, in their grief journey. When I'm working with families, I ask them all to share that experience because their experiences are so different and they share those memories. And it's like, I never knew that about, you know, about dad. Like siblings sharing same stories have different, very different relationships with their parents. And so getting to hear their stories and sharing, I think it brings us closer together as a family. It's so important that we talk to each other and that we allow those feelings to flow and those thoughts to flow, even if it's anger at times or, you know, sadness. It's important that we allow each person their individual experience. Very good. That is good.
AMY FREDERICK:So if you're say you're a parent and you're grieving a loss, how do you help your children through the process?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So again, it's really important that we role model for our children what it is we're experiencing. Um, we need to show them that it's okay to cry. It's okay to be angry that they've lost someone that they love. Of course we have to appropriately do that, but I think that's so often what happens is parents don't want to be upset in front of their children because they don't want to upset their children, but it really gives them a forum and an opportunity. Children, the forum and the opportunity to then express themselves if they if they see a parent who won't cry or won't grieve, you know, with them, then they don't think that they can do that either. So it's really important that parents show kids it's okay to be sad and it's okay to have these feelings and that I'm having a hard time too today. And so, you know, I think if we role model for our children exactly what we expect from them.
AMY FREDERICK:Oh, I think that's a good point. I also think you made a good point earlier that when we think of grief, we usually just think of a death of a loved one. But there's all kinds of grief, you know, an end of a marriage, a job loss. You said even incarcerated. So how's that grief process different? If it's not a death or, you know, versus if you've lost a loved one. So is there any, um, is there any kind of different way that you should grieve or is it all just the same?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:I don't think we really get the opportunity to choose how we grieve. So I think that, um, the experience of loss is very hard on any level, and people go through that experience as they go through it. And when someone's grieving someone who's incarcerated, it feels a little different because there's hope that they will see them again. So that physical connection is different. Um, but when when, you know, children have their parents deported, for example, they may never see them again. So that is more like a death experience for them. Um, but there's there's no right or wrong way to do it. And, you know, loss is loss and loss of a relationship. Divorce and separation is always hard. And we we go through those stages, those those different emotions based on what that relationship meant to us.
CONNIE GAYLOR:And I agree, I do think that, um, when, when it's a divorce or if, you know, incarceration, I think with both of those you have a hope that you will either that person would come home if it's an incarcerated, you know, family member, or that you'll get over the hurt of like a divorce, which I grieved like a death. I did I grieved it hard. Um, when I got divorced, because I just felt like I had lost that whole part of my life. But at the same time, I also knew I would get through it, you know? Whereas when it's a formal, like a final loss, I just don't know that you can always see that end in sight, Insight like you think you can personally get through some of the other things and and not that one's any easier than the other. You know, I'm not I'm not saying that at all, but I think that sometimes you can feel hopeless instead of hopeful. And and that is something that can make it hard to, to get through the process. Um, you know, we were we had talked before about even, um, you know, suicide. Mhm. And I lost my father to suicide. We were not close, but I came out of it so angry, so angry at him. How dare he do that and make me have to go through handling everything for him afterwards or you know, or just going through the the guilt of, well, why did he do that? And why didn't he do this? You know, so I think some loss is sadness. It's emptiness. It's being flat out just angry at at that person who's no longer there. Then you feel the guilt of being angry at the person is not there, you know? And it's a lot. And it's something to that you don't necessarily always. We've talked a lot about things in our mental health initiative. So Amy and Matthew have heard my story. So that's why I'm not I don't feel, you know, funny, you know, talking in front of front of them about it. But I know sometimes if our listeners are are hearing this, it's not something you openly just tell people, right. And, and we talked about this a little bit with Paula. Is that you you know, you in a different circumstance maybe you want to hear those stories about your loved one after they're gone, because it keeps the memories alive. And sometimes when it's not positive in the way it happens, you know, that's even harder to work through because you don't necessarily want to hear the good, right? And then, you know, and that's a whole other thing that you have to process. And that can be tough.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:Yeah, I think the whole the, the concept of hope is so important in that at some point it's not going to hurt as bad that we're going to be able to gain some perspective, especially in the suicide. We have to kind of look at what was going on for that person at that time. And the fact that, you know, there is some level of mental illness when there's a suicide, there's there's absolutely depression, right? But then there's also the lack of coping skills and feeling very isolated and alone and going like down that tunnel and not being able to get out of that tunnel. And so the they're not thinking about the people around them, they're not thinking about how much it's going to hurt them. They're just thinking they don't want to be in pain anymore, and that's the only thing that they can think about when they go down that tunnel. So it's hard to understand that if you have good mental health, how someone could not think about other people, but it's just their coping skills are not working anymore and they don't see any other way out but hope in terms of how we get through this and how we restore ourselves to a better place. Guilt and anger, especially in suicide, is very common, and I think guilt often comes from the feeling that we had no control. Right. And so if we're feeling guilty, that gives us a sense. Well, there must have been something I could have done. But the reality is, is that when someone's going down that to that dark place, unless they're telling you that unless they're sharing that information with you, there is nothing that you can do. You really are helpless to them. So it is a I think suicide is one of the hardest griefs to work through because there are so many emotions and we just constantly think that there is something we could have done, and we guilt ourselves and we give ourselves a very hard time, and then we feel angry. And, you know, people think I shouldn't feel angry that someone died. But we do feel angry because they've left us and we could have helped them. So I think that the the whole concept of getting through that and getting to a place where we can put it in perspective for them and for ourselves is so important because it changes the way we then process the rest of our grief. And divorce, as you said, is a death. It's a death of a relationship. It's taking that whole piece of your life and kind of saying, okay, that was then. Now I have to rebuild a whole new life. And so that whole concept of, you know, that it is a death in many respects. Yeah.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Yeah. It shakes you. Like any death would, doesn't it? Yeah. Um, when you talk to families and, um, and it gets to the point where you're maybe you're not seeing progress together, then do you take the step of suggesting individual and and how do you do that? I mean, when you have a family in the room and you've got all these, these different ages. Um, it's I mean, what kind of, um, approach do you take? Do you do role play? Do you do something to get them to open up? I mean, I know everybody's not just laying on a couch spilling their guts. I mean, how how does that work? Kind of give us an idea of kind of how a session with a family would look.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So one of the things I do is I always have fidgets because when hands are moving, mouths are moving. And so it kind of takes that that responsibility of, you know, being in the spotlight because they can focus on those fidgets. Right. That's right. Yeah. So a lot of that. Yeah. So I have lots of fidgets in my office and and they'll just pick up what feels most comfortable and just start talking. And then they don't have to make eye contact either. Right? Sometimes it's really hard to make eye contact with people when we're feeling so bad. Um, so we look at the, the different relationships and then if the family is not getting along, then we need to, you know, set some ground rules about the fact that every person's feeling is valid and that regardless of your experience, someone else's experience may be different. And if they can't come together and be respectful to each other, then we do have to kind of break it up so that maybe the kids are together and, you know, the parent is alone or however the dynamic is flowing will really determine how we then go to future sessions.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Okay, that makes sense. I just, you know, I know not all of them just made them as smoothly and flow, you know, um, and it can be tough, you know, to, to be in that situation and be facilitating that.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:And sometimes I just let the dynamic flow and see where it goes, because it's so important to let them actually work together. And then you also see the dynamics in their relationships. Right. And you can understand maybe where someone else is coming from. So it's very interesting to watch families. There's always fascinating to me.
AMY FREDERICK:How do you suggest supporting if I know a family that's grieving a loss this holiday season or any time, what's the best advice you can give someone like me to support that family?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So a lot of times people don't know what they need. And I often say that we have to teach people how to help us. We need to. People don't know what to do when someone who is grieving, you know, they approached them in the store, for example, right? They either run away from you because they don't know what to say, or they sit there and they say, I'm sorry. And they just look at you with blank stare. And then it becomes our responsibility then to kind of make it comfortable. Um, so what I would say is your story is your story, um, and, and it's your narrative. And so you present it the way you feel most comfortable. So, so for some people, you're going to be able to say, this is what I need. I could really use you to make some meals for me, or I would love for you to go to the store and kind of shield me from people, right? Or so we have to tell people what we need. Um, and if we're supporting someone and they don't know what we need, we can offer a meal or we can offer to come over and, like, can I just sit with you or can I take you for a drive? Can I get you out of the house? So often we forget to leave our house? We forget. You can just go sit in your backyard. And just getting some of that sun often helps. Um, so just trying to get them out of that place, um, just being there to listen and just allowing them to tell their story. People, we as Grievers don't know what the people who are asking us for help can really handle. So that's why I say sometimes it's up to us to kind of show people what we need. Um, and so you can say, I just need you to sit here and listen with me. Just just talk to me. Just talk to me about anything else but my grief right now. Talk to me about what? You know, the sales are at Macy's or anything that's going to take my mind off of it. Or I really need to talk about my loved one. And it makes people uncomfortable when I talk about them. Can you sit with me and just listen to me and listen to my fears and my sadness and be okay with that. I think it's very hard for people to sit with someone who is sad and not try to fix them. There's no fixing this. This is about just allowing people to experience their grief on a pure natural level, and being honored by the fact that there is that they are sharing this with us and to give them some hope. Like, I know this feels terrible today. I promise you, in three weeks or in three months, this is going to feel different. You may not be able to see that now, but I know down the road it's going to feel different. So just giving them that hope for the future. Yeah, I guess.
CONNIE GAYLOR:If we can't I think that's great. Yeah. If we can't always find the hope ourselves, maybe just hearing other people try to remind us that that's where we can be.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:Yeah. And just letting them know I'm here. I'm here to listen. I'm here for whatever you need. Right? And I don't know what you need today or tomorrow. But you know, we'll get through this together. And just partnering with someone and letting them know they're not alone. Yeah. Yeah.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Can you tell us, because I, I know that you offer different types of support programs. Um, at, at QJ, can you give us just some of kind of how you format them.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So we, we have like our bereaved parent group. So it's important that parents can come together because a parent's grief is so different than a widow's grief. Um, so we have our parent groups, we have our suicide groups. Um, we have our widowed groups, our family groups, which is, um, mending hearts. And that meets the second Thursday of the month, where we have families come together and families talk about how they have worked through some issues or what's going on for them. You know, sometimes we we want to just cocoon ourselves. And it's so important that we go there and talk to people and open up and be able to hear other people's ideas of how they got through certain experiences. Um, so our family programs, we have our hope and healing days. We have our, um, our open grief groups, um, there. So there are so many different groups that adult groups and kids groups. And we're in 70 schools throughout the Tri-State area, this area. So, um, there's a lot of grief work that's going on in this area.
CONNIE GAYLOR:It's sad, but it's probably needed so much to think that you're in 70 schools. Yes. And what kids are going through, you know, that's a lot.
AMY FREDERICK:When you go into those schools. What do you what's it like? Just give me an idea what the program is like.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So we go in and we always have a snack because that's very nurturing. Right? Food right is wonderful. Um, and we have an activity, so it's kind of guided, but we allow for, you know, open communication and we, we try to help kids get in touch with their feelings. Sometimes feelings just feel like anger or sadness or. So what is it that's going on for them and trying to help them put into words what's going on in their worlds at that point? Um, and it's it's a place where when you walk into a school and you see people who look happy, knowing that there are other children who are in this school that are also going through what they're going through, just gives them a sense of of companionship. Um, and just knowing that there are other people, you know, when they're walking in the hallways and they say, you know, there's that person that's in my grief group. And so I know I'm not alone today. Um, and I think that is so helpful, but we we just process through and, um, you know, given the type of group that we're in, the, the, the age level that we're in it really, they kind of determine what goes on in that group beyond our activity. So, you know, our, our teens often talk a lot more about getting in touch with their feelings and what's going on there and how, you know, these the events in their lives, um, are being affected because of the grief. So, you know, when, when a child is graduating, even if they've lost their parent 10 or 15 years ago, that graduation is really hard. Prom is really hard. And then they're thinking about the future. And, you know, they're not going to see me get accepted to colleges or for younger kids, it might be my my parents not going to be at my game today. And that's really hard because I've missed them being there or I missed them coaching it. Um, so being able to just talk about that is so important on a level where They know that they're the kids in their school. Understand that the people in that group understand better than anyone else.
CONNIE GAYLOR:It's like they're in a kind of community. Yes. Isn't it? Yes. And I imagine with your families, and since there's really no, like, start and end date to a degree. So if you have families or individuals that you've supported for years, they become probably part of your community to where then you know, they're a good support to other people who are just coming in, you know. So it seems like it's something that can kind of just keep feeding its itself to help other people. So, you know.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:We see children from kindergarten through 12th grade, and a lot of times we'll see their parents in our grief groups, and then they'll come to our Mending Hearts program as well. So they're getting three components of our grief program. And we just watched them flourish.
CONNIE GAYLOR:You know, when I was in school, which was a while back. I do not remember having support groups like this. Did you name them? No, I don't remember anything like that. And how much of a difference it would have made? Oh, I think so too. You know, for a lot of. For myself or, you know, just for friends that I had, you know, I mean, I'm so appreciative, you know, that you guys do this because this is life changing for for kids to be able to work through that and get theirself on the right direction or feel like, you know, they have a vision for the future because they can look beyond their grief and, you know, otherwise it could absolutely derail you. Absolutely. And I can see how it could do that to a teenager or young adult, you know. So I think that you are able to get into schools. It's just it's just kind of a shift, I think, in, you know, in how school districts see nurturing the kids. It's not just education and athletics.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:You know, if your mental health is not doing well, you're not going to do well in school. So that has to be a priority. And these schools that we work with are amazing. And allowing us to come in and work with their students. And the students get to see, well, you know, someone is three years out and so they're functioning well, right? They're doing well. Their mental health is going well. They're back on track in terms of their schooling. They're maybe not as angry or not as sad. So there's also hope in that they can see that they're going to get through it just by looking at someone else and hearing their stories.
AMY FREDERICK:Yeah, that's a great point. All right. Can you tell us about your Pathways to healing events? Sure.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:We have so many programs that we use. It's actually, um, the programs are, um, almost seasonal. Um, we have our, um, grieving soul groups that meet for six weeks in the summer, and those have different themes every week. Um, We have our family putt putt and our golf outing in the summer as well. We have our morning of Hope breakfast and our bonfire in the fall, and then in the spring we have our day of healing where we just spend the whole day together. We have different speakers coming in and talking about different portions of grief, either based on their the relationship or based on the the conditions under which someone died. So it's a full day where we get just get to spend time together and build community that way.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Are all these events family events or some more catered to adults versus, you know, I mean, golfing. Yeah, right. Versus putt putt. I can kind of see the decision there or, you know, whether by age or ability, you know, but um.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:Um, our bonfire is very family oriented. Um, and we just had that at Neiderman farm in the fall, and, um, and I just have to give a shout out to them because they open up their farm to us free of charge for every person that comes in. And we've had, I think we had 87 people come last, um, in October. And what we do then is we, you know, we have snacks or food depending on what's going on. And then we, we did rocks this time and we just we had our rocks of hope. So they could either take them home or they could put them somewhere on the farm. And then we have our s'mores and we just sit around and we celebrate, and it's again time for families to come together and meet each other and say, you know, hey, how did you get through this? Or, you know, it's just really nice to know that there are other families that are going through this. I think sometimes when we're in a community and no one else has had a loss, we feel very isolated or different, and it's so important to not feel different and to feel like there's a sense of community.
CONNIE GAYLOR:No I agree. Yeah. When you feel different, you isolate yourself. Even outside of just feeling different in general. You isolate yourself and then you add grief to it. And, you know, then I can see how, you know, you would just withdraw and not make any progress at all. Like coming out of that. Um, if someone wants to reach out to you guys, what what's the best way for them to do that?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:So I always encourage people to look at our website. We have an amazing website with lots of resources. Um, and I think it really touches on just about every grief you can imagine and every age group. Um, what's your website? So our website is companions on a journey.org. Um, and if you have questions, you can actually register on our website for all of our programs. Um, if you have questions, you can absolutely call our office. And that number is (513) 870-9108. And our interns or our bereavement specialists are happy to talk to you and help you navigate through the process of finding resources or coming to our groups or just listening. Sometimes you just need someone to listen.
AMY FREDERICK:I think your organization is great because we've had several of you on our podcast, and all of you are so thoughtful and soft spoken. I can see where people would open up. So I know that you've brought lots of notes. You've brought us slinkies. Is there anything else that we haven't asked you that you would like to add about family grief?
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:Um, just to be supportive and to allow people their own experience. I think sometimes we want to when we're talking to someone, we want to make it better. And grief can feel very messy and uncomfortable. And so it's important that we kind of check Ourselves, um, and be able to open up and really listen to a person with our whole heart and soul and just, you know, give them the support. You cannot fix this for someone. And we so want to do that with our loved ones. We so want to make it better for them. This is a process, and the best thing you can do is just love them and support them and be there for them. Um, and I think that's probably the best advice I could give to anyone who is is trying to support a loved one.
CONNIE GAYLOR:Well, that's great advice and something certainly that our listeners and, and us, you know, are going to take to heart. And we just appreciate you so much. Thank you. And all the ladies at Companions on a Journey and everything that you've done. Thank you so much for joining us.
ANN MARIE KAHWATY-BOGAN:Well, thank you for having us. It's so nice to be able to talk about something we are so passionate about. That's not out there enough. So thank you. You're welcome.
AMY FREDERICK:And thank you for listening.