Montgomery Smashing The Stigma
The statistics tell a clear story. The National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) reports that one in five Americans live with a mental health condition. With the support of our City Council, the City began a mental health initiative to help break the stigma. As a small local government, providing treatment for mental illness was not feasible. Still, the City believes we are responsible for being a conduit and connecting people with groups and solutions that are out there when they need it most.
Montgomery Smashing The Stigma
Seeking Addiction Treatment with Katie Spencer
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In this episode, Katie Spencer joins us to talk about seeking addiction treatment and how the harm reduction model minimizes the negative consequences associated with drug use and other high-risk behaviors, focusing on practical strategies and non-judgmental support. Katie Spencer is the State Behavioral Health Director at Brightview Health Outpatient Drug and Alcohol Treatment Center.
Learn more about Brightview Health at brightviewhealth.com or by calling 888-502-4571.
Welcome back to the Smashing the Stigma podcast. I'm your host, Amy Frederick, along with my co-host Connie Gaylor. We both work here at the City of Montgomery. Today's episode is going to be a powerful one. We're sitting down with Katie Spencer, the state behavioral health director at Brightview health, an outpatient drug and alcohol treatment center that's making a real difference in people's lives. Katie, we're so excited to have you here. Thanks for joining us.
Katie Spencer:Yeah. So happy to be here. Thanks for asking me.
Amy Frederick:Katie, we want to thank you for your participation in the August 28th Community Panel presentation on addiction. Can you tell us about Brightview health and the services they provide?
Katie Spencer:Yeah, so Brightview health, we are outpatient substance use treatment. So we actually started in Cincinnati. Uh, and now we have we're in five states and we have 36 centers in Ohio. So um, we treat substance use disorder primarily. So those who have an actual diagnosis, um, we have medical and behavioral health services. So patients who are coming in are going to see a medical provider talk about medications, what could be the best for them, and then, of course, behavioral health coming in and seeing somebody for individual counseling, case management is often often a need. And then different types of groups we have for patients too.
Connie Gaylor:Are all those groups. They're held there in the various centers.
Katie Spencer:Yeah. So we have groups that are on site. And then of course we have groups that are virtual trying to make treatment accessible. I think that's one of the things that we've really tried to focus on. And, you know, working against that stigma and trying to make it accessible. So like people coming and, you know, they're getting there, they're getting jobs or they're getting their kids back. So coming to treatment between the hours of 8 to 5 might be really hard for a lot of folks. So we have that telehealth option too, which is really nice. And so in the evening as well. So we have psychoeducation groups and then we have process groups. We have men's and women's groups. We have lots of different groups, so just figuring out what it is that patient would really benefit from and trying to get them connected to that. So it's nice because at the center that they're at doesn't offer it. We can usually get them connected virtually to another center. That does.
Connie Gaylor:That's good. Um, do you have a and I, I don't know if I read this on your website, but do you is there a certain age group that you treat?
Katie Spencer:Yes. Just adults.
Connie Gaylor:It's just adults. Yeah. Adult being 18 and over okay. Okay. Yeah. Because there's there's so many needs nowadays and it spans all I mean it seems like just gets younger and younger. Yeah. You know, which is sad but it's being able to to find those services. And I think.
Katie Spencer:Just we have more treatment options for kiddos with substance use disorders and mental health issues. I think more so than we've ever had. But we only treat adults. Okay. Yeah.
Connie Gaylor:Um, on a different note, just to kind of get some of your background, what inspired you to to, you know, go through the education and you've been through a lot, you know, to get your social worker.
Katie Spencer:Yeah.
Connie Gaylor:License all that licensing and clinical management. You kind of run the gamut of the education.
Katie Spencer:Yeah, I think for for me personally, social work just felt like a calling. Yeah, yeah. You know, to help and serve others. And so I when I first started out, I was working actually in education, I was doing teaching and I was pursuing that. And what really inspired me was the kiddos that we were working with. So I was working at a school that was on an Air Force base. So that specific culture, you know, that can be hard for kids when their parents are deployed and things like that. So we had kids that just were really struggling at home, you know, and it was really impacting them mentally. And so just making school a safe place for them to want to come is great. But I felt really inspired to. I want to help them with their other, you know, problems and issues and that are really impacting them. So that is kind of what shifted me from doing education to social work. And I've worked with a few different populations over the years and, uh, you know, getting my masters. One of the things that they say in our master's program is that, you know, in five years, you're probably going to be in a management position or at least offered a management position. If we've seen and I thought, that's no, I like working with patients. That was kind of, you know, my main focus. I didn't really think that I would be in this role. But again, you know, that pathway and where it takes you, um, moving into the clinical setting, I saw how much influence supervisors had over a patient's treatment. So how much support clinicians got or they didn't get it, um, how much that impacted not only their mental health and protecting them from burnout or, you know, exposing them more to it and then just the patient's care. So as clinicians, we're staffing patients. And, you know, how do I help this patient. What interventions what treatment should I use. And that's really important part of the supervision process. If you're not really getting that then we're really limiting the help that we're providing people. So seeing that for me was what called me into wanting to do that. I thought.
Connie Gaylor:That is good because and Amy's probably thinking the same thing. Um, the better they are, the better care and support they give to the patients, you know? Yeah. Um, if they get burnout, that that would not be good for anybody. So.
Katie Spencer:Yeah. And you don't know everything. So it's like going to school and everybody is different. Every person you're going to treat is different. And so and the evidence based practices keep shifting and changing. And there's new types of treatment you know to provide out there. So if, uh, clinicians aren't kind of getting that help and that guidance to continue to grow their skills and continue to be knowledgeable, then yeah, it's really going to limit their ability to to be effective with patients as they could.
Connie Gaylor:That kind of leads us to the next thing. Thought I'd had is um, I imagine you've seen an increase in services and demand, um, from Covid on. It's just the world we live in. Yeah. It just seems so hard.
Katie Spencer:Yeah.
Connie Gaylor:So hard to manage. Um, on a good day, do you feel like the treatment methods have kept up with that? I mean, you're talking about evidence based and the changes there. Do you feel like that? That's meeting the needs.
Katie Spencer:I think there's always been a need for treatment. I just think as, like today, just that we've been talking about it more openly and people are coming forward, You know, just saying, hey, I need treatment or getting access to treatment. So it's not something we're hush hush not talking about anymore. So I think there's always been a need, but there's still a lot of work to do. And so I think with treatment with the harm reduction model of treatment. So really meeting patients where they're at and again things that kind of go against the stigma that we're trying to reduce, um, to make treatment accessible, that we're not going to be so rigid in that because before with abstinence based model treatment, it was it was very black and white. Either you're doing this or you're not. You're either coming at this time or, you know, there wasn't a lot of flexibility to understand that when somebody is coming to get treatment, there is a lot of chronic instability that they're dealing with and things that are going to be barriers to getting to treatment and just realizing that keeping people alive is first and foremost, first and foremost, the most important, you know, um, hoping that we can keep patients engaged, um, long enough to where they're going to be able to get more stable and have, um, stability in their life. And so I think in that sense, we've been more impactful, uh, with people that we're treating in our communities and providing that.
Connie Gaylor:Just for our listeners, would you just explain what harm reduction is?
Katie Spencer:I realized I said that maybe not everybody knows. So harm reduction model of treatment is again, it's just meeting patients where they're at. So what are their goals? What is it that they want to work on? Again we want to keep people safe. So that harm reduction is how can we work on keeping them safe, and what does that look like for each patient. So it might be reducing the amount of use or the type of substances that they're using. Um, making sure they have access to things like Narcan and, um, access to different resources. So with that approach, we are walking more, I think, alongside the patient instead of that, again, that rigidity, that kind of black and white, because people who come into treatment have such a deep sense of shame and guilt. And so coming to a place where they're feeling judged, either I'm doing it right or wrong. And now, granted, abstinence based treatment works for a lot of folks, and to each their own. Um, but for us as treatment providers to say we want to treat people and treat them with compassion and dignity and respect and not force what I think somebody should be doing or like, force our morals or our values onto someone else. And, um, really just again, just coming from a place of compassion and really wanting to save lives because that person who comes through the door, it might take them coming through the door and coming to treatment ten times before. You know that they find that they're in a place where they can really start making some progress and move towards, you know, having some of that sustained recovery in their life. So, um, that's that's the hope that we, that we want to have for our patients with that model.
Amy Frederick:So thinking of that, sorry, but how so if, if I have an issue with drugs or alcohol or I have somebody. How does it how does brightview work? I call you and then what happens?
Katie Spencer:Yeah. So we have a call center, um, so people can call and set up an appointment to come in. But one of the things that I really like, that what we do is we have walk in appointments. So when somebody decides, I'm really done, I'm sick of this, I want to go get help. They might not feel that way at a scheduled appointment two days from then or a week from there. So we want to make sure that people are able to come through the door when they make that decision, so we can best support it at that time. So I think that is for me, um, huge, because working in the treatment field for so long, a lot of it was, how can I get an appointment to get an intake assessment, to get in, to be seen? And, you know, we had patients who didn't show up for those appointments because there was so much time in between making the call and reaching out to get the appointment versus, you know, when the appointment actually occurred. And so this, I think, really helps to make it as accessible as we possibly can for people when they make that decision.
Amy Frederick:So so once they're in your program, once they come and see you, what happens next? Do they keep coming back? Do you hook them up with a clinician? How does that work?
Katie Spencer:So when patients come in to see us, they're going to meet with the medical provider. Again. We always address safety first. So we have patients who might be coming in. It might be just really sick and going through withdrawal. So, um, we're not going to put them right in front of a behavioral health person to kind of dig into all the things when somebody's not feeling well. So we always want to prioritize them to see medical first. Um, typically so medical can do their assessment and then behavioral health can do their assessment as well. So in that first month of treatment we really want to stay connected to the patient. Um, establish a treatment plan, get to know them, help them to understand our services. There's a lot of case management needs in the beginning that we want to, you know, stay connected with them on. And then really, it's about working with that, um, those providers of what that treatment looks like, what the frequency looks like. So, you know, somebody might come in and they might really need treatment. Maybe they need it weekly for right now, um, or coming in multiple times a week. Um, we have some that maybe they get stability faster. Everybody's progress looks different. And so somebody who might have a little bit more stability, maybe they come to treatment once a month or you know that's going to vary. So really working with their clinicians and providers of determining what is going to be the best treatment frequency for them to come to services.
Amy Frederick:I know everybody is different and every treatment is different for everybody. But what would you say is the average that your patients spend with you?
Katie Spencer:I don't have the data like right off the top of my head, but with our patients, what we've seen with medical assisted treatment is that people are staying on it longer periods of time than before, and so that still requires engagement obviously in treatment services. So I think there's been some expansion as far as how long people stay in treatment, which I think is really helpful to us to make sure, again, that people have that stability. Um, and so we have some folks that stay in treatment. They've been with us for years. Um, so it's going to just look different for everybody. But we really want to make sure that we don't discharge somebody too soon. Um, until we really have been able to feel really clinically confident that they've met those treatment goals and they've made that progress and the patient's ready to discharge.
Amy Frederick:So, Katie, outside of your work and behavioral health and clinical management, you also played a key role in developing and strengthening substance abuse disorder and medication treatment. Can you tell us about that?
Katie Spencer:Yeah. So I mentioned working in an abstinence based treatment model. So I worked at that time with the federal contract. So, uh, folks coming from the federal courts, uh, being mandated for treatment. And so, again, you know, that was kind of the treatment model, more so at that time. And then when harm reduction model of treatment really kind of started to becoming more known and being more implemented. Um, that was when I really got involved and transitioned to another clinic that they were treating folks they had therapists with, you know, treating different things, but they weren't specifically treating substance use disorder. And so their medical providers were just starting to become, you know, waived to prescribe medical assisted treatment. So really working together with the providers on both sides, medical and behavioral health of just being able to be collaborative in that process. Because where treatment is at now is very different from where it was. Harm reduction five years ago, ten years ago. And so I think it's really important that we continue to stay educated and continue to be open minded and evolve as the treatment changes. And so that's been really exciting to be a part of that.
Connie Gaylor:Yeah, we see that here. Um, during our panel presentation, you know, we had a representative from Hamilton County. Mhm. And in her role in harm reduction, you know, they had Narcan that they distributed, they had clean needles. Yeah. They had ways of collecting the, the used needles which for some people they think we are just feeding it. You're just, you know kind of endorsing it. That's not the point. Yeah. The point is like you say meeting them where they're at, walking along beside them, keeping them alive. Yeah. Until you can help them come, you know, overcome that addiction. Come off of it. But that's a hard thing for people to accept. You know, that open mindedness five years ago, I don't know if the county was having that program, if they were out there putting those things out into the public, maybe they were, and maybe we're just now more aware of it. Yeah, but before I just think of the amount of lives we've lost because they didn't have the ability to do that and that that, you know, they always talk about like gateway drugs, but these are gateways to overcoming it.
Katie Spencer:Absolutely.
Connie Gaylor:You know, and that's big. Yeah. You know I think that's I'm I'm proud of Hamilton County. I don't know if Montgomery County does the same thing. I think that most of them are starting to do that if they have public health departments. But I just feel like we're actually we are treating these people with compassion because we're saying we're going to help you through. We're not just going to tell you to do it.
Katie Spencer:Right. Right. And I think, um, just, you know, kind of piggybacking off of that is, you know, just educating the community, kind of talking about it today because, you know, family members, uh, courts, um, different counties are a little bit different and how progressive they are with it. And I was talking to somebody just the other day of, oh, wow. I remember when we had, um, you know, emergency services who were saying that they weren't going to Narcan people, but you don't hear that today. We made a lot of progress.
Connie Gaylor:So talking about the substance abuse disorder and that entire development of seeing it that way, um, and maybe you touched on this, but I just want to kind of touch on it one more time. So normally, or what I'm learning is that when somebody has an addiction, a lot of times they have a co-occurring mental health issue. So without treating both sides, are you going to be successful in working through it? Yeah. And when you were developing that, when you were working on that, um, did that play a big part in it or is it kind of that it's coming alongside each other now?
Katie Spencer:Yeah, there's definitely a correlation. And so with people coming into treatment, There's such an enmeshment sometimes between what their substance use looks like and a mental health disorder potentially. So it's also kind of being able to separate that a little bit to say was it was this person really depressed? And that's what led to them, you know, using substances or was using substances. And the isolation and the chemical things that happen. Is that what really contributed to things like depression and anxiety? So we really want to identify what that patient needs. So continuing to assess what those needs are and really paying attention to that mental health piece of it. So we have screening tools where we talk about depression and what that looks like for people when they come in for appointments, you know, anxiety. Those are kind of like the two big main ones that we see a lot of people that have a really hard time, hard time with, but also wanting to be able to to know that everybody's needs are going to be a little bit different. So we have people that have more significant mental health needs and so really wanting to connect them in the community with more specific mental health providers, psychiatrists, to make sure that that they get the services they need. So we often can have patients who are seeing somebody specifically, more so for that mental health piece, somebody who specializes in treats that disorder and then might still be coming to us to talk about their substance use. So it's really just kind of navigating that process with patients and what it is that they need and what it is that they're ready to do with that.
Connie Gaylor:Do you feel like the same medical environment, I guess, has come along to work hand in hand in a collaborative way? You know, like you were just saying, you have somebody who's going to, you know, behavioral health or mental health provider separately from you. Is there good collaboration Operation to working together. Have you found that that is there any challenges with that, or does that seem to kind of come together to help the patient?
Katie Spencer:It's always great when it comes together, but that's not always the case. Okay. Um, so we have psych providers, um, at Brightview. Um, but when we have people that are going out in the community get those services, we do want to have a good working relationship with them and make sure that we have releases of information in place. So that way we can share some information based on what the patient is agreeable to, to make sure that we're working kind of more in tandem. Sometimes that's just hard. That's just the reality, though, too, of some of our, um, services in the community. The resources are so thin, um, people are stretched so, so thin across that, um, you know, sometimes that communication can, uh, be better than what it is, but we always try to make sure that we're, um, trying to work together as best as possible.
Connie Gaylor:So, yeah, for the best interest of the patient.
Katie Spencer:Absolutely.
Connie Gaylor:Do you feel like, um, with all the work with, you know, the substance abuse disorder and just the different things, do you feel like the stigma? If I can say that? Do you feel like you're destigmatizing. Um. Is that getting better? Is are we are we breaking through any of that to make it easier, to make people more willing to come and and seek treatment without fear of, you know, being criticized or.
Katie Spencer:Yeah. Yeah. I think the most important thing that we can do is, again, just making sure that we're talking about it, educating people and being willing to talk about those things with our friends, with our families. You know, um, because everybody is impacted by substance use, uh, at some point. And so I do think that we've come a long way. It just even in the language that we use, you know, at Brightview, we, give new hires like, hey, here's a list of verbiage that's really outdated. That might just be, you know, normalized for somebody who's working in the field. But this is the verbiage that we want to use. And this is why. So things that really kind of help to break down that stigma of just, you know, um, instead of calling people addicts. Now, somebody might choose to call that for themselves, but we call them somebody with a substance use disorder. Instead of saying, you know, you tested clean or dirty, you know, like, that just sounds, you know, just really harsh and negative. So just changing some of that verbiage. But I think those things can go a long way. But um, man, we've we've come so far. I think back to when people were really afraid to talk about it and really afraid to seek treatment, or we just didn't have as much treatment accessible. Um, and again, a lot of shame and feeling, um, judged by people in the community. So it's really nice to see how much progress we've made. But the reality is there's still so much work to do.
Amy Frederick:Yeah. So speaking of that, if somebody in one of our listeners is thinking about that, they need help. What would you tell them? How to help them make that decision to contact you?
Katie Spencer:Yeah I would. Again, going back to I would say come to one of our centers, you know, come in and talk with somebody and have that appointment to kind of help make that determination because really they're collecting that information to say, hey, this is what, um, you know, we think we can help you with. And just being able to identify what that person might really want help with, you know, things with their substance use disorder and things that kind of surround that. You know, maybe it is that mental health issue. Maybe it is they have some legal issues, maybe it's transportation, employment, you know, what it looks like for that person to get them help. And so it's always going to be the patient's choice of what that looks like. So if somebody comes and starts services, you know what that looks like is completely up to them. So I think just having that compassion and treating people with that respect of we're here to support you when you're ready to show up. And if you decide that you don't want to come back to treatment. We have people that come to us from the courts that are mandated to come for an assessment. And, you know, you'll hear people say, like, I'm just here for an assessment. You know, um, we've actually changed our process, a little bit of folks who come in if we don't identify a substance use disorder, um, based on what we're, you know, the information we're receiving from the patient, we say, hey, we've actually extended our evaluation period up to four weeks, you know, or so to meet with that person weekly to get more information and just to really make sure that we're doing a thorough process of, hey, we've really determined, based on this information over time, that we really do think that you might benefit from treatment, or we might feel more confident in saying, we don't see that you need substance use treatment or we don't have a diagnosis at this time. And so I think that's been really helpful, um, working in partnership with the communities and people who get referred to us. So.
Connie Gaylor:Well, I was just thinking, because I'm sure you have people who walk in, especially if they're mandated, I don't have a problem.
Katie Spencer:Mhm.
Connie Gaylor:I really don't that's what they're going to say. But if they go for four weeks and they really start hitting some hard questions and um reviewing, you know, just reflecting, they may realize, yeah I do have a problem, you know. And so I'm glad to hear that you extended that because it'd be very easy for somebody to come in and glaze over it and walk out.
Katie Spencer:Right.
Amy Frederick:I'm just here because I have to be right.
Katie Spencer:And I think it's important just to, you know, recognize that person came through the door. That's still a choice at the end of the day. So to come.
Amy Frederick:And you're exactly right.
Katie Spencer:To come through the door to sit with somebody again. You know, like you said, maybe they come a few times and they're like, wow, I think these people actually care about me. You know, I think this is a place where I feel safe or comfortable because we've had patients that come to us and say, I've been to other treatment providers and I don't feel like I'm a person. I feel like I'm just a number, uh, you know, and I don't feel like I'm getting that compassion. And so that's one of the things that I hear quite often when I talk to patients, um, pretty regularly, is that they feel like we're a safe place to come to. And I think that psychological safety is so important for people who have been living in kind of that survival mode or who have post-traumatic stress disorder of coming in, they might be understandably very guarded. And they might say, I don't have a problem. I don't need treatment. That's okay. We're here and we're going to dig through and find that out and support them in whatever that looks like. And so the hope is where we always start is wanting to build that relationship with that person. You know, um, for everybody that looks a little bit different, you know. And so our clinicians and our providers and even our front desk staff, you know, everybody is very intentional to make sure that they're engaging and supporting that patient, um, when they come through the doors. It's so important that they feel safe because when people feel like you care about them. Uh, and this is about their life, and it's about some of the most intimate details of things that they might have shame from or, you know, problems that they're going through. Uh, that's really hard to talk about. It's just so important that we set that stage of this is a safe place to come. And we do this because we care.
Amy Frederick:And I think it's important, like you said, I hadn't thought about it, but it's the language and the verbiage that you use that keeps people coming back. If you're going to say things like addict and junkie and with a negative tone, it's not going to be warm, welcoming, safe space. And I think that's very thoughtful. To start on a kind note, when somebody is asking for help, or even if they're not even asking if they're just there because they have to be. But then you keep coming back. And like you said, even walking through that, that door is the choice. Yeah. So when you're met with kindness and you're met with thoughtfulness, I think that really does make a difference. And there always was shame, I think, attached to addiction. And that does keep some people away. Yeah. So, Katie, I know that you work in the Dayton location of Brightview, but you guys are in five different states and you have 36 locations in Ohio, so what's the best way for somebody to reach you?
Katie Spencer:Um, so the best way I don't have the phone number right off the top of my head, but.
Amy Frederick:Put those in the notes.
Katie Spencer:Okay. Perfect. Um, again, I think it's. We are so close, You know, having so many centers, we're so accessible that I would just encourage somebody to come through the doors and, um, you know, meet with us. We like I said, we have that walk in times which I think really makes a difference to make it accessible, to say, I think I want to try this and I think I want to, you know, see if I can get some help or I'm ready to get help. I would always encourage anybody who's thinking about it, whatever that looks like for them. When you're ready, come or call us. You know, we're here to support you. When you're ready.
Amy Frederick:We have a website. Yes, because I think a lot of people are like me. You want to get your your toe in the water, but you want to look first. You want to investigate the options. Absolutely. See what it's about.
Katie Spencer:And the internet's the best place to do that. Yes, you can do that anonymously. Yeah. Bright view health. You might find there's a bright view landscape that's not. Oh, yes. Um, but yeah, our website is wonderful. So people can go in there and kind of take a look at our services and see where we're located, and get a lot of good information on there, what to expect on their first day and things like that.
Amy Frederick:I think that's a really great place to start. Yeah. Tell me that website again.
Katie Spencer:Bright View Health.com.
Amy Frederick:Okay. Is there anything that you wanted to add that we haven't thought to ask you?
Katie Spencer:I don't think so. I mean, I feel like we kind of hit on all the major points of just that harm reduction model of treatment. What that really means, what those services look like for folks. And really, again, just at the heart of it, of knowing that this is people, you know, this is people that we're treating at the end of the day, this is somebody's dad, brother, sister, mom, you know, child. And um, and, you know, it's such it's hard, hard work. It's hard when, you know, we lose patients to this disease. And, um, but, gosh, it's so rewarding to see the transformation in people's lives. You know, people who came to us. We always start a lot of our meetings and our daily huddles with mission moments, you know, to keep us grounded and centered on why we do the work. And that is just always so touching. So when I travel and I go to different centers and I hear them sharing about their mission moments, about just this change that, you know, a patient might have experienced, you know, like they got a car and, you know, that's a big deal. Or, um, it can even be something as small as, like, uh, you know, a patient who decided to engage maybe a little bit more in their behavioral health services and something that maybe they might have been a little reluctant to do. So, um, I think it's really important, uh, with this disease and the treatment that we take time to recognize the progress that people are making, um, truly is. So, um.
Amy Frederick:I think that's a great way to end it, that we are all just people. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so thoughtful for you to say.
Connie Gaylor:Well, thank you again. Thank you for being on our on our panel presentation. Listeners, Please go back and listen to the August 28th panel presentation. It's on our YouTube channel. You'll find everything in the show notes to link you there. It was very powerful. Um.
Amy Frederick:You're going to hear so many stories. You are that are inspiring. They're thoughtful. They're people who've come through addiction and gone out on the other side. Right. Your experiences that you shared with the audience. It's such a wonderful presentation, and you can listen to it at your own pace, at your own home.
Connie Gaylor:Absolutely.
Amy Frederick:So that's a wrap for this episode of Smashing the Stigma. A huge thank you to Katie Spencer for sharing her expertise and insights. It's conversations like these that help break down barriers and bring hope to so many. If you found today's discussion helpful, please share this episode with someone who might need it. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an update! Together, we can help the conversation going and continue smashing the stigma around mental health and addiction. On behalf of my co-host Connie, we thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.